tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post3651120342955440703..comments2024-02-28T10:15:50.335+02:00Comments on Lotus Evangelist: An Idea that we are thinking aboutKeith Brookshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-1615793199171670692009-10-05T20:56:56.884+02:002009-10-05T20:56:56.884+02:00Suffice it to say this has been an interesting dis...Suffice it to say this has been an interesting discussion.<br />Thank you all for your comments.<br />If I upset you by the thoughts posted it was never my intention and I apologize.Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-56898793896655677532009-10-02T22:14:59.242+02:002009-10-02T22:14:59.242+02:00Despite your complete misinterpretation of Kathlee...Despite your complete misinterpretation of Kathleen's comment, I think you'll find you're out of step with reality here<br /><br />"more women are in the work force or graduating from colleges or starting their own businesses" ... uh Keith I don't know how to break it to you but we've been doing that for about 20 years now. At least all the women I work with have (see I won't even conform to the gender stereotype of hiding my age how's that for confusing)Gabriella Davishttp://blog.turtleweb.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-75521599125503511592009-10-02T21:54:57.273+02:002009-10-02T21:54:57.273+02:00Keith, how could you possibly have extrapolated th...Keith, how could you possibly have extrapolated that from my comment? Where do I say that it is bad that more women are in the workforce, graduating from college, or starting their own businesses? I never said or implied such a thing and I do not understand how you could have possibly thought that I did.<br /><br />I think you are confusing the issue - the workforce and the way people work have changed, but not just in the arena of gender. Application design should take that into account. However, implying that an entire gender would all use an application the same way is not just incorrect, but insulting, particularly when there is an additional implication that women need simpler interfaces.Kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10498981955467900187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-66029185024808258502009-10-02T20:03:57.657+02:002009-10-02T20:03:57.657+02:00Kathleen,
Thanks for your comments but is it such ...Kathleen,<br />Thanks for your comments but is it such a bad thing that more women are in the work force or graduating from colleges or starting their own businesses?<br />And what does that mean for the future is what I am wondering.<br />I don't see this as a bad thing in any way shape or form.Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-32214021866241796802009-10-02T13:10:30.345+02:002009-10-02T13:10:30.345+02:00The problem with your premise is that the examples...The problem with your premise is that the examples you give have nothing to do with gender. You make some valid points in your post - that the way people use computers now is different and that customization should be available - but that's relating to the individual, regardless of their gender. <br /><br />In the comments, you say that you and your wife find different types of applications easy to use, and apparently you've used that example to jump to the conclusion that it is due to gender differences. Yes, men and women are different, but so are people within a specific gender, race, religion, or nationality. It's customization based on individuality that should be looked at in application design, not customization based on one physical attribute. <br /><br />In case you haven't noticed, women are a diverse group. As for the women who have commented on this post, I doubt that Francie, Kathy, Maria, Gabriella, Marie, or I would have the same opinion about everything (or necessarily anything at all!) just because we all happen to share a gender, with the possible exception that we all think your post is ill-conceived at best and offensive at worst.Kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10498981955467900187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-40693477901899021842009-10-02T11:30:27.935+02:002009-10-02T11:30:27.935+02:00@Keith - yes MBR's user profiles would have be...@Keith - yes MBR's user profiles would have been much better than genderGabriella Davishttp://blog.turtleweb.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-58558092538438043562009-10-02T04:59:00.290+02:002009-10-02T04:59:00.290+02:00Marie, I would love to see an app that could chang...Marie, I would love to see an app that could change itself as easily as I change the bitmap background on my desktop.Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-43627378796220542002009-10-02T02:35:06.201+02:002009-10-02T02:35:06.201+02:00Why not have @userintent so that the UI would be i...Why not have @userintent so that the UI would be interpreted based on each individual's own personal preferences? And if you're really going to develop based along feminine lines, you best get cracking now...because you'll ever keep up...as we women like change, constant change -- haven't you seen how many shoes/handbags "we" purchase...? Seriously -- if there were a need for gender specific software, we would have asked for it or coded it ourselves.Marie Scotthttp://www.bleedyellow.com/blogs/crashtestchixnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-19099354111146958552009-10-01T23:11:27.665+02:002009-10-01T23:11:27.665+02:00Jonvon, Thanks, I think. Discussing advertisements...Jonvon, Thanks, I think. Discussing advertisements is only a small piece of the overall puzzle.<br />As is color, why does everyone always focus on color.<br />it's not about color as much as simplicity, ease of use. But the crux is what I find easy to use and my wife finds easy to use are 2 different things.Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-74319550154662489792009-10-01T23:06:26.522+02:002009-10-01T23:06:26.522+02:00Paul, I do know it, don't get this far in life...Paul, I do know it, don't get this far in life without knowing one's limitations.Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-43517083243729905462009-10-01T22:42:47.119+02:002009-10-01T22:42:47.119+02:00Keith.
Its not what you say. Its how you say it. ...Keith.<br /><br />Its not what you say. Its how you say it. If you don't understand that by now, you never will. So I will leave it there.Paul Mooneyhttp://www.pmooney.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-81902209349339444062009-10-01T22:35:56.312+02:002009-10-01T22:35:56.312+02:00LOL
omg dude.
o.m.g.
ok. so.
IF one were goi...LOL<br /><br />omg dude. <br /><br />o.m.g.<br /><br />ok. so. <br /><br />IF one were going to code for men vs women you could code more subtle, textured and sophisticated UI's for women as compared to men. it's men who need Big Shiny Things in Very Bright Colors. esp considering way more men are color blind than are women. if you were coding for men, you'd want to use a lot of blue and shades of blue, and green, no red at all generally speaking, since for many men red = gray. <br /><br />look at the ads in magazines for men. look at the ads in something like Redmond magazine, clearly targeted to mostly men even though there are lots of women in IT these days. you see all kinds of sophomoric and very loud HEY LOOK AT THIS IT'S A SHINY SUPER HERO MOSTLY NUDE MODEL FROM OUTER SPACE OVER HERE kinda stuff. pretty much the same thing in Wired. look at a magazine more targeted to women and the ads are totally different, subtler, with actual text in them. <br /><br />i'm sure i don't know what you were posting about, i can't make it out (hope that doesn't sound rude i just can't honestly tell) and therefore what i am writing here is probably a bit off topic, but IF we were going to have that discussion, the men would be much more likely to, well, not look quite so good compared to women, as regards the sophistication of application UI's. maybe MBR would say different, i'm NOT an expert (although obviously i have given it at least a modicum of thought), but that would be my back of the envelope guess.<br /><br />something tells me i shouldn't post this comment, but what the hell. we still loves ya man. <br /><br />:-)jonvonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08772177801754830717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-37497371871195264132009-10-01T20:41:22.018+02:002009-10-01T20:41:22.018+02:00Francie,
Sorry missed your followup.
Yes, customiz...Francie,<br />Sorry missed your followup.<br />Yes, customizations should be a priority but that begs the question of which customizations.<br />Until a every day non-IT person can customize any application like say, igoogle or the my.yahoo portals then it's a problem.<br />And what I imagine we would see is distinct differences that can be better defined in one way or another.<br />You don't have to agree with me and that's okay too.<br />Why do marketers create a toy for a boy, then make it pink and offer it to girls? That's gender bias and stereotypical stupidity.<br />But it happens everyday and sells for them.<br />This is about business and productivity and my belief that businesses could learn a lot from the way women think and how the products we all know and love could really have a great future if it was applied, and possibly sold, in a different way.<br />Maybe that is where I ultimately will go with these ideas.<br />Still thinking, but wanted others feedback and still encouraging more feedback from non-IT people in the business world since they are who we as a business ultimately will be selling our services to in the future.Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-88053449718402391532009-10-01T20:26:35.592+02:002009-10-01T20:26:35.592+02:00Paul, somethings never change, sorry, but if one c...Paul, somethings never change, sorry, but if one can't post thoughts for discussion on a blog, then what is the point?<br />Like your post on 3rd party products on Domino the opinions are on both sides of the fence.<br />Is it any different to when driver tests are in multiple languages? Shouldn't they all learn English?<br />Why is this so different?<br />Because I mention gender? <br />I purposely looked to find recent data that outlines this information, not just a shot across the bow for fun and hits.<br />Why would I purposely try to piss people off? What good would that serve anyone?Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-86702657895192601302009-10-01T20:09:32.650+02:002009-10-01T20:09:32.650+02:00Gab, Not written at all for attention like that.
I...Gab, Not written at all for attention like that.<br />I want the feedback purposely.<br />If I am on the wrong track, as some say, so be it. <br />I never said this was the way, just pondering this when I stepped back to look at business and what we need to do next year.<br />This was just one aspect which kept coming back.<br />If I replaced the "stereotypes" with MBR's profiles of users would that be better?Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-47729182647276102352009-10-01T19:57:47.136+02:002009-10-01T19:57:47.136+02:00Maria,
Thanks for the comments. i agree that total...Maria,<br />Thanks for the comments. i agree that totally radical changes in UI from one person to the next can be a support nightmare.<br />However, no 2 people's browsers are alike in plugins, setup, toolbars, etc.. so it is possible to a certain extent.<br />And yes the Eclipse side of development is bringing us to this, hopefully, but it is a progression.<br />if we can make a sidebar that is so flexible, why not more of the client as well? the problem then is, what would you or I or anyone want to do with it?<br />This is harder to answer.Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-90386777341087241252009-10-01T19:50:51.817+02:002009-10-01T19:50:51.817+02:00Spanky, yes did briefly discuss with MBR.Spanky, yes did briefly discuss with MBR.Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-73194929669436510372009-10-01T19:50:25.021+02:002009-10-01T19:50:25.021+02:00Keith. I swear to god that I sometimes think you ...Keith. I swear to god that I sometimes think you only stop shooting yourself in the foot so you can reload.Paul Mooneyhttp://www.pmooney.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-38805581986135961882009-10-01T19:50:17.174+02:002009-10-01T19:50:17.174+02:00Mike, Yeah that started my thinking a bit.Mike, Yeah that started my thinking a bit.Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-5920107642156507052009-10-01T19:32:49.727+02:002009-10-01T19:32:49.727+02:00I loathe your use of the term 'coding for wome...I loathe your use of the term 'coding for women' and find it insulting personally. It marginialises an entire gender. I think both Francie and Kathy to their credit have given you more reasoned responses than you deserve. I'd be equally humourless about 'coding for jews' which would also apply to me.<br /><br />To be honest I'm not interested in your detailed explanation of what you meant - if you didn't MEAN coding for women then you shouldn't have written that, unless you just wrote it to draw attention to the posting and bait people.<br /><br />I would hope you're smarter than that.Gabriella Davishttp://blog.turtleweb.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-15672567548333025372009-10-01T18:14:24.318+02:002009-10-01T18:14:24.318+02:00I think the meat of the post is actually in your c...I think the meat of the post is actually in your comment...which you might want to post as it's own post:<br /><br />"why do some people like one twitter app but not another? It's still twitter.<br />sometimes it's functionality, sometimes it's UI, sometimes it's about if it works through a reverse-proxy,firewall.<br />Like I said in the post, bad comparison in wording perhaps but the point was customization I think is very important in the future but why now, compared to 20 or 30 years ago. What has changed?"<br /><br />My guess is that what has changed is a baseline competency/comfort level with the users. Back when we had people who really had only ever touched a computer once in their life, and the whole thing was VERY intimidating to them, it was important that the UI be 100% consistent. Both to help the user, and also to keep support from being a nightmare. There are still a LOT of users out there who need directions in the form of "in the upper left corner of your screen, click on the word 'File'...it gives you a drop-down list, now..." . However, the people who are signing up for Twitter, or applying different templates to their wordpress blog, have moved beyond that to a level of comfort that allows them to play around with the UI and find something that fits their needs (make this widget more prominent) and desires (brand it with my logo).<br /><br />There have been some products in the past that offered this in a limited way for the notes workspace, but I agree that the workspace isn't nearly enough. I believe that the direction IBM is heading with the Eclipse client does open some more doors for this. However, in thinking about my Helpdesk involvement, I have to doubt that our company would allow end users to customize their experience. There are network impacts for thin clients on the WAN when you start using heavy graphics, and then there's the difficulties in providing support for a user whose client looks NOTHING like yours, with buttons in different places, etc.<br /><br />It is hard to think what else the Notes client might be able to look like while still doing everything it does...but it is an intriguing idea.Maria Helmhttp://www.mariahelm.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-28460997096194863862009-10-01T17:22:28.500+02:002009-10-01T17:22:28.500+02:00Wow.
This is a joke right?
Normally I agree with y...Wow.<br />This is a joke right?<br />Normally I agree with you 100%, but on this one I think you forgot to engage your crazy filter.<br /><br />Notes Client designed for a woman? Or from a woman's point of view? Ummm, have you forgotten about Mary Beth Raven? Or Susan Bullock?<br /><br />Forget the teflon suit, you may want to grab a fire jacket. ;-)Spankyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07456488637827032729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-55493587399127657022009-10-01T17:00:25.821+02:002009-10-01T17:00:25.821+02:00I think this article relates to the spirit of your...I think this article relates to the spirit of your abstract:<br />http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/139/separate-and-equal-femme-den.htmlMike McGarelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08695501016060398503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-59767623414952714042009-10-01T16:45:48.180+02:002009-10-01T16:45:48.180+02:00Kathy,
Actually no, pink was an example, but not t...Kathy,<br />Actually no, pink was an example, but not the idea.<br />For instance, why do some people like one twitter app but not another? It's still twitter.<br />sometimes it's functionality, sometimes it's UI, sometimes it's about if it works through a reverse-proxy,firewall.<br />Like I said in the post, bad comparison in wording perhaps but the point was customization I think is very important in the future but why now, compared to 20 or 30 years ago. What has changed?<br />My presumption was a change in balance in the work force has slowly altered the outlook of products and what the consumers want to use and see.<br />I had no other way to describe it after this, although admittedly my logic may be bad and thus the premise incorrect. Which I do accept is a possibility.Keith Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107190540208956954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994561579739999989.post-36093714517783058292009-10-01T16:40:04.602+02:002009-10-01T16:40:04.602+02:00Sometimes, singling out a part of your demographic...Sometimes, singling out a part of your demographic and adapting your apps to accomodate, or rather simply NOT EXCLUDE, makes sense - like the blind for example.<br />But even there you're not fundamentally changing an app, you're merely making it more user friendly, making it possible for everyone to take advantage of it's features. <br /><br />What doesn't make sense to me is singling out a part of your user population and claiming that they need different apps. Like non-English speakers, atheists or women.<br /><br />I'm not a developer, but I am a user and your app has to be intuitive, easy to use, or else I'm not gonna use it, regardless of gender, age or race or religion. <br /><br />Now if you're talking about skins, or CSS-like things here, then I agree with Kathy - seems like a worthy topic, but you're definately putting focus on the wrong thing.john deerehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01800470302902475197noreply@blogger.com